See archives for past discussions:

• Archive 1 - 11 (961kb) -- October 2003 to March 2005

• /Is Creationism a theory -- August/September 2004
• /What is wrong with the lead section -- September 2004
• /History of Creationism -- September 2004
• /Selection as a creative force -- October 2004

God created IMAX on the eight day, it seems...

http://www.cnn.com/2005/SHOWBIZ/Movies/03/23/volcano.movie.ap/index.html

Very Large Screen Stupidity in genuine southern US style... What a shame.!

Removal of two sections to creation-evolution controversy

The critiques of creationism and the defenses thereof belong on the controversy page. I have moved them there. There could be a short little sentence or paragraph describing the controversy that refers to the other article, but the distraction of the immense "personal essay" as User:Ungtss liked to put it doesn't belong in an article devoted simply to explaining the phenomenon. Joshuaschroeder 07:44, 30 Mar 2005 (UTC)

Wrong. The 'criticisms of creationism' section absolutely belongs in the creationism article. It would be totally misleading of us to create an article that does not make it absolutely clear that creationism is a hugely flawed and hugely criticised religious outlook. Moreover, the criticisms highlighted are totally legitimate, informative, and what's more - important. I have put the section back where it belongs. Aaarrrggh 15:32, 31 Mar 2005 (UTC)

The only problem with this, as I see it, is that the sections aren't criticizing creationism but a particular brand of creationism that is associated with the Creation-evolution controversy. Those two sections don't seem to be on par with the rest of the article as it now stands. There are a huge number of creationist claims that could be debunked and there are also a huge number of perspectives by creationists on what creationism is. I think that should be made clearer if this section is to stay. Joshuaschroeder 15:37, 31 Mar 2005 (UTC)

<<It would be totally misleading of us to create an article that does not make it absolutely clear that creationism is a hugely flawed and hugely criticised religious outlook.>>

This is in direct violation of npov, which provides that articles neither state or imply that a particular point of view is correct or incorrect. Ungtss 16:19, 31 Mar 2005 (UTC)

We are treading on old ground here Ungtss. We have been here before. Joshua, if you want to edit the criticism section to clarify any of your concerns, I don't mind that at all; I just don't think it's right to remove the section entirely from the article. Aaarrrggh 16:51, 31 Mar 2005 (UTC)

Yes, we've discussed it before. I just felt obligated to point out the obvious. an article which does what you want this article to do violates npov in a direct and explicit way. Ungtss 16:54, 31 Mar 2005 (UTC)

I agree strongly with Ungtss' last statement. Aidje 18:23, 2005 Mar 31 (UTC)

Fine, but if you actually look at the edits I've made, I think it's fair to say they've helped the overal neutrality of the article considerably. When I came to this article, there was no criticism section whatsoever, and it was a TOTALLY biased account of creationism in favour of the creationist arguments. I agree that a wiki article should not come to actual conclusions, but it is fair to say that creationism is such a flawed theory and goes in the face of so much scientific evidence, that removing such criticism would itself constitute a form of bias. I'm not saying the article should explicitly state that creationism is a fraudulent theory (although this would still be accurate), but simply that such criticisms are totally relevant and should remain within the article. Aaarrrggh 21:32, 31 Mar 2005 (UTC)

I appreciate your concern for npov. Attributed and fact-based criticism of creationism is essential to an npov article. the current criticism is an enormous personal-research essay that states opinions as facts, thus violating npov and personal research rules in mind-boggling ways. Beyond that, defenses of creationism are also essential to an article on the topic. but these have been stripped out or down to meaningless conclusions, and followed up with long rebuttals. npov provides us with a structure that will serve both our purposes. when an article violates that structure, everybody loses. Ungtss 21:50, 31 Mar 2005 (UTC)

Why is noone ever willing to respond with an open mind to comments such as those above? Why is the majority unwilling to remedy clear and obvious violations of policy on this page? Do you not realize that when you can only "win" by breaking the rules, it's evidence that your ideas aren't strong enough to win on the merits? Why not win according to the rules? Why not provide cited summaries of critiques of creationism, and allow cited summaries of defenses thereof, without stripping them of their content, deleting them entirely, or answering them with extended personal research rebuttals that make no sense? Do you realize that when a creationist reads this page, he's not persuaded that creationism is bunk, but is instead persuaded that evolutionists are afraid of it? Ungtss 13:56, 2 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Or do as Ungtss does: If you can't "win" with the existing rules, make up your own. User:Ungtss/FAQ Bensaccount 18:33, 2 Apr 2005 (UTC)

I feel that we should remove the criticism of creationism from this page, replacing it with a reference, until such time comes that there is a criticism of evolution on the evolution page. Samboy 00:36, 3 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Legitimate criticisms of the nature of evolution might be relevant on the evolution page, but a 'criticism' of evolution from a creationist perspective does not belong on there because it is simply corrupt and not relevant. The evidence for evolution is absolutely overwhelming, and creationism is nothing more than an insidious anti-intellectual pseudo-theory stemming from the inability of some religious people to deal with the reality of the world we live in. Aaarrrggh 13:28, 3 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Fine. So it is. Even so, NPOV still applies. the article may not imply that the point of view is right or wrong, and may not be filled with personal research, no matter how noble your intentions of freeing 45% of the US population from its own "corrupt, insidious, anti-intellectual pseudotheory." No matter how evil the criminal, the rules still apply. otherwise it's a mere lynching. Ungtss 19:58, 3 Apr 2005 (UTC)

In general, fair representation does not mean giving an idiot equal say. Bensaccount 20:11, 3 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Nobody's asking for an equal say. what we're asking for is that we be allowed our say in cited, scholarly summaries, and that you limit your say to cited, scholarly summaries, rather than your own personal research. you are censoring cited creationist opinion and replacing it with your own uncited, personal research. Ungtss 20:20, 3 Apr 2005 (UTC)

I was not being specific to this page, which I have not read. My problem is with Ungtss' arguments. Bensaccount 20:24, 3 Apr 2005 (UTC)

I think that Ungtss has done a good job of sumarizing Wikipedia policies on NPOV et al. I think that everyone should read the Wikipedia policy on NPOV before accusing someone else of making up their own rules. Or do you care to elaborate on where his summaries run contrary to Wikipedia policies.

It is parallel policy intended for bypassing the set policy, and I certainly do not care to waste my time reading it. If you need a summary of NPOV, heres a good one: The neutral point of view policy states that articles should be written without bias, representing all views fairly. Bensaccount 00:32, 3 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Your evident failure to read the FAQ or the long, complex and subtle npov policy draw the quality of your evaluation into question. Ungtss 19:58, 3 Apr 2005 (UTC)

I didn't make any evaluation, I said I had no intention of reading your attempt to rewrite NPOV. Bensaccount 20:11, 3 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Maybe you should start by reading the real npov, then see if there were any substantive differences in mine. nah. too much work. Ungtss 20:20, 3 Apr 2005 (UTC)

I have read it and am satisfied, therefore I see no reason to read your attempt to rewrite it. Bensaccount

If you've read it and are satisfied, then feel free to start following it. start by deleting that abysmal personal research, highly pov, and factually inaccurate essay at the end of this page. Ungtss 14:51, 6 Apr 2005 (UTC)

essay

i strongly suggest that one of the proponents of the pov personal research essay at the end of this article bring it into conformance with wikipedia policy. it is currently an enormous pile of pov personal research, unbacked with cited scholarly opinion, and much of it is patent nonsense. Please. If you want to save the huddled masses of ignorant and vile creationists, follow the rules of npov. we're not stupid enough to confuse your opinion for reality. on the contrary, your persistent unwillingness to follow the rules just further convinces us that your views are nonsense. thoughts? Ungtss 03:40, 8 Apr 2005 (UTC)

•  !! ---Rednblu | Talk 05:59, 8 Apr 2005 (UTC)
• How did Ungtss become a spokesperson for all creationists? Joshuaschroeder 13:37, 8 Apr 2005 (UTC)
  • How did schroeder become the spokesman for reality? Ungtss 21:25, 8 Apr 2005 (UTC)

I am offended that Ungtss is calling eveyone with this belief ignorant and vile. Bensaccount 17:20, 8 Apr 2005 (UTC)

• Carry on, ben. carry on. Ungtss 21:25, 8 Apr 2005 (UTC)

I will edit this section when I have more time. It definately needs cleaning up and fixing. I'll do it as soon as I can. Aaarrrggh 16:33, 9 Apr 2005 (UTC)

That sounds like a great idea. in order to maximize article quality, please find, reference, and cite published and scholarly criticism. thanks:). Ungtss 17:56, 9 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Ok Ungtss, that I will do. I have made a start on an improved version of this section already, but I'm going to go to the library in my own time now to really tie it all together I think. I will try my best to update this in the next few days if I can. Aaarrrggh 18:43, 9 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Awesome:). Ungtss 21:58, 9 Apr 2005 (UTC)

 !! ---Rednblu | Talk 23:58, 9 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Definition

I was suprised to find there is a difference between creationism and belief in creation. I think this difference is subtle and the reader would benefit if this article differentiated the two. Bensaccount 17:33, 8 Apr 2005 (UTC)

That's a very good idea. And thank you for having the courage to remove the essay. How would you differentiate the two? Ungtss 21:46, 8 Apr 2005 (UTC)

As far as I'm concerned, it's not the 'essay' that I was concerned about - it is having a section of the article dedicated to legitimate criticisms of creationism. I will take this on myself now, cleaning up and changing it until we hopefully have something much better. Aaarrrggh 16:37, 9 Apr 2005 (UTC)

The first task is to make that which links to Creationism, creation, creation belief, origins beliefs, creating, and creation (theology) link to that which is most appropriate, and avoid redirects. Bensaccount 16:28, 9 Apr 2005 (UTC)

4+ archives are excesive 10+ arcives are worse

I merged the archives, I think material discussed looses relevancy when broken. I simply cut pasted material together. Page will load faster than user can read even on a 56k machine. This page was 200+kb large. Excesive is an under statement. Archived all entries till april. --Cool Cat ^{My Talk} 10:55, 10 Apr 2005 (UTC)

I hope no one had an Heart Attack. Thanks. --Cool Cat ^{My Talk} 11:03, 10 Apr 2005 (UTC)

AiG link

I changed the link to Answers in Genesis from "The thousands of articles and media programs on this site answer questions about creation/evolution, dinosaurs, and much more." to a more descriptive note about its support of Young-Earth creationism. I think this is much better way to know which site says what than something that sounds like it came from a press release. --Weyoun6 02:23, 11 Apr 2005 (UTC)